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Episode 7 · 1 year ago

The Hell House one

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week leading up to Halloween, Anna, Bek and Laetitia watched a documentary about a Texan conservative church that created the concept of a "hell house" - a Christian-themed haunted house attraction. Join us as we discuss our thoughts on Hell in all of its complexities. What we believe, what the Bible has to say, how history has shaped modern evangelical belief and how it can be used as a tool of fear."

*This episode will involve the mention of such sensitive topics as rape, abortion, suicide, homophobia, incest and family abuse.

A quick caution to our lissons. Thisweek's episode of pleace stop involves the mention of sensitive and triggeringtopics such as rape, abortion, incest, suicide, Hymophobia and family abuse.Listener discretion is advised welcome to please stop a holisticcritique of Christian POB culture for Huma honesty and silt, provokingdiscussion here with me, my Besie, I'm Ju, sure Hap. We are anifact, HeyIm Latisha. I tonight we will be disgussing healthyeahmh. We all watched a documentary called Hell House and that is llaunching pad, so the Documentary Hell House was made in two thousand and oneby Philmaker, George Ratleff and where he explores the bizarre phenomenon ofHalloween hellhouses. I angelical fright fests that use grizzly skits todemonstrate the consequences of homosexuality, abortion, drug use andother condemned behaviors. This documentary chronicles a fullperformance season at the original hellhouse in Texas in Dallas, whichboats an annual audience of more than ten thousand people and investigateswhether its organizers go too far in their attempt to save souls. It wasactually released in two thousand and two, my bed, so it Kinda like a hauntedhouse, but churches run them for say, oused to walk through or the generalpublic to go through and instead of being like ghosts that are spokingpeople they have you walk through and what scenes Um very realistic scenes ofthings that they have determined are going to send you to help it's aphenomenon, that's kind of spread across America as I understand it, and they yet seeme to really go for shock factorsupprsurprise and they, the I guess, end goal is that they will convert allthese people Um, essentially scare them into Um,converting to Christianity and believing on God. So I'm going to read you guys somenames of characters, fictional characters and you're, going to tell meif they would end up in heaven or in Hel ago. Okay, this one in particular its for youLatisha Cinderella. Oh my gosh, I don't understand why I'm alwaysgetting picked on heaven. Ohell well, she's, a treasure on a delight so clearly heaven, the animals love her. What about you back? What do you reckonHavin? A hell, her opinion doesn't Maner Heaven 'cause. She did a lot of hardwork. She worked out her salvation Ohisn't it like yeah, not workssomether at James Crankit, up an Atch I and man slashhoney stock, heaven orhell bit of a playboy save the world n mean technically he is the savior ofthe entire world, like you said, isn't that Jesus Yeah Heaven because he had a brilliant Haraterog,I'm sorry I didn'teise, heaven was run by playwrights and people whoappreciate good plots and CHARACTERSO realize heaven wasn't run byplayerights and fictional people, oh y, what you're saying he ha? He wasa terrible person, but he went from being playboy to more philanthropistright, T theaan. Then he wasn't a so M to people who don't know me. I was verymuch not a Tinysh Tark Fan, but aven OK, you said, but he was a cherrbule personbecause of he was a playgoing all that, but even thanthat e came from his own, like his shoes wasbeing raised by a terrible person. Howard stark was awful and it fed intoall thish other stuff. was he a...

...billionaire yeah? So by deful hedoesn't get into having Im Arit. Well that Heshe's money, the the goodof things and ddy toys yeah I mean I don't think the billionaire shouldexist, but we're talking about fictional universis ye, also the Bible. I gear that anotherfictionl so Wi'thin that same universe thenoff. This is a tough one. He wipedout half of civilization, but he did sorr for the good of all mankind. Ijustmultiply resources. It's a lot harder to do than snapping your fingers also.He did a lot for nature by wiping out half of all civilization, so you knowenvironmentalist than usmaybe getting into heaven I mean nt, good andit, badpeople are bad. Does it even out Olso? Do you feel personally attacked Wa? I have no emotional investment inmarvel anymore after what they dig: Captain America and Bucky and the lastfilm. So No, I am not feeling personally attacked. You got noemotions at all. I had no emotions whatsoever and I I I ha let go of thefact that Captain America was completely out of character, ind, thelast film. But what would I know Sur Wais? Your question I reckon Arican Danos is in hell because, because he didn't believein Jesus Crist, I mean ther ere little old college likestor and stuff. So does Jesus exists in this universe, Oit's a great question. I mean just because that is the current univers' Christian ideologyabout how you get to heaven or hell doesn't mean that it's the ideology ofhow you get to have anoihell in the Marble universe. So, in a General Sense,oh, I will tell you who is going to hell in that universe, Odin worstfather of defrican universe. I just wanted to say that far Nou YeahRory Gilmol Tel. Oh, why? Why did ware go to hill, hisman bu? She was a good shef fat shamed, Tho, Ballarina, shes Siper, entitledshe had everything given to and still she was really mean to hem mom. Whenher mom was like. Oh No, you went to jail for crashing, a boat that wasn'tyours and she left himum to go. Love wit, heir, grandparents 'cause. She waslike Oh mum, you're a bitch and, like that's just really entitled and she'sVery Spoiltd. Absolutely she is spoiled and she alsolike slept with a married man twice. If you look at them year, an the life Yepm logan. Well, he's not married, but he is engaged Yep Yep. She she made poorchoices and if we're just going simply on good choices and bad choices, yeah Imean okay, so you read Moby Dick five times. Butlike, you know was that a good choice Spermacedi if you've seen the showyou'll get it. I've never sang an Episoeigili girl. So I have no idea.Well, let's be super official, let's be superficial, superficial based on facevalue. HAVE'N I hell El Hell Beck is showing you a picture of Eho VoryGilmor is look at that smog base yeah yeah, I guess she's in Hell, good to know. Yo heard it first, herory Gilmore is in Hell Rachel from Glee, she's in Hell, she's a Narsasus.I Love Rachel. No, in that she never apolt like she nows. She is what she isand she goes for it and I, I think that's great, but she shoul this alllike she's gone, and she knows it too. So don't feel like I know enough toweigh in here, but from what I've seen from the first season of Glee. 'cause.That's as far as I went, Tom's got to beargi AD't. You go really yeah yeah, Idon't know well yeah, but again, if she's anasisist and that's why shedeserves to go to hell. Don't Weolyeah, I mean they're, probably all already inhell, it's a game of throwngs character and I've never watched a game. OtorDanny, didn't es! Don't even stop me Ondenar, Oh heaven O' hell, she's in e Hell, butbut I'm very PAININ to say that I'm very pan to say that, but ah she's also impervious to flames, asshows your mother of drag she's, aline, shes, propably, she's ine. She probablyruns hill yeah yeah sh drag ITN yeah...

...lukely in Hel, yeah shilling, blaminglike a Damon, Mach Simpson, Havn, no hell he Shim Holy Shwips eaven looking out or that familyer mentlike no. She didn't hell because the simpsons o show is actual hell. Reality.She's she's in a prison planet yeah yeahyeah right yeah, but she goes totravel to America. H, t that would be hell, Wi family to church she's, trying to save them there inpugatry and she's, like we still have a chance. She has hair that reaches to heaven.That's the real stairway to heaven, madge's hair. She was apparently meant to have rabbityears inside Thik for AE, not graninare. You Ser, Ido e kidding. She was meant to BEA brapit. She was make to be a rabbit.Okay, Whybow Jack. I Google it in the Simila Vane Net Flandas, ah having oHell, hidelio neighbor. I think he's in Heaven Heaven because yea he wasAnnoyin, but he had a good hart yeah and those ones have to go to heaven. Iwould rather hang out with Ned than hoimer an day. This is true. I mean Iwant to be cool and allbut tbe like UK Yeu Christians, Butt iplanes would benice and wholesome to hang out with. Also in that episode, where heauditions to Bein that play with marge, he takes a shirt off and I'm still disturbed by that saying. Well, I can't help that. Okay, youdon't cuse t me to ser by the fact that Margh has ratet es under her curenshaped Ha. It was not corn but but you're, not okay, with that land asbeing hot Yoreay, had to put a picture of hot ndned Flanders on ourAntegrambaesoil Yon, and I have a copy. I have a boyfriend, you call him Ned. Sometimes I mean whatit said in the head of the moment. It cannot be judge, I'm a right, Tish MNO, no ha no hating Welli'm, notwelldersed and stalwos war. So I don't really know I am and yeah ood. No, I know Yo, but I don't. Ican't really make a judgment on him on his character. Isn't he just like superwholesome and wise W, but Hela ine, the Laiter of like the Getiin up and theycorrupt? I come on. Okay, don't talk about what you don't know well, you'vebrought it off Godas in heaven because he's a nice guy I mean he put up withwhiny Luke Skywalker for so long he's got o vested interest in maintainingbalance in the force and he does everything he can to help. Yoda is coolllright and he'sshiky. He hits people with his cane when he's upset at them.He's really good at fighting. He like zips around and then he's like old, butI'm old and ia like some baby, Yor Toma. Yes, Oh baby, I don't know, but themeans unyow cute, it's what a chicken is that Cannin tothe show, or is that just a man o? I think it's just a mean peopll, justlike cutify Yoda and everybody likes chicken nut. She realize we're going toget some tand he's like well, actually it's not called by Te Yoidl. No, it'sjust the letification of the stal was cannon. Moving on from Atchikin Nugi,you have friend Duble. Do Oh he's in Hell, yeah, oh he'Soin Hill he'srunning the place, he's running the place yet wasn't he like Oh good andight night at night? Not He ditched Harry off at an abusive situation andokayhe knew serious was innocent, but but the reason why he didn't getserious out of ASTERBAN was because of serious had raised. Harry Harry wouldnot have needed dumble door and doubled orl manipulated all of it. Ethis is al very much Mistieri, notcannon Harry is so much more pliable because of the way he was raised. EAHwith abuse, troma neglect. All of that he was looking for Har Father Pi upbriefly had hagrid and then dumble dog came along. Of course he was going todo anything, dumbled OAS said, and he idolized him and worshipped him whene.A hundred percent dumbledo was pulling the strings the entire time. Oh I'msorry, he died from wizard cancer, but still he's in the bad place. Ik I I getWy dumble do did everything because she was the smartest one and so could pullthe strings and had everything on the chessboard and, I think, he's abrilliant tarater, bysahell and Downnowthreerouni. I went in thinkingthat I knew how I would respond. I...

...believe I would respond thinking well.This is ridiculous because I knew it was done by conservative evangelicalsand I'm used to them being ridiculous. So I went in thinking well, it'd befunny to watch. Not Funny is in humorous, but I can't believe this is athing I didn't expect to Te really overwhelmed by it. The the Shangare quite traumatic. I think- and I know that that' kind of point- that thethe church is trying to do, but it's not that isn't how people can make rationaldecisions, and I know that salvation isn't meant to be rational. It must to be a hard thing, but I thinkit it does more damage than watch they're trying to do it, eveneven if you are in that mindset all is angelical even then. I still think itis too awful again. I knew also that they exist umthe hellhouses, and I know that the one started by this church kind of popularized it and it's becoming quitea movement and Olova the. U S. At least I don't know if theyhave them in other countries. I certainly don't think they have them inAustralia. Maybe they do the idea of scaring people intobecoming Christians. I mean it's pretty effective. I know people who was scarred by thatFirsen revelation about Um with Jesus, says to one of the churches that,because you and eitheyl hot no cold, but because youll luqolmawill pit youout of my mouth and it's literally scared them into becoming Christian M and this pher of Hell. You, if youtake away that fear, I wonder: What's what there is after that Um, but thisdocumentary in particular and the Um. It was bizarre because of howenthusiastic these kids wer about getting set and rolls in the actualhouse, for example, therare girls going. Oh, I want to be the girl that getsraped in a nightclub Um. Oh, Oh, I want to be the suicide girl which, like from a a thid potty view, that's kind of Um crazy. I think there's such a lack of aconnection between the real world and the Evangelical World that y they have.This idea of what the real world is like and that's what they portrayingthese hellhouses, that it's sinful and itjust shows the complete lack ofunderstanding of what's onthing outside. There was a moment where one of thesetwo characters weld talkd to characters. Two people who were talking in this- Iguess he was a youthpastor- was Um telling the skill W at to type down asshe was writing a script for um the event for the hellhouse and he wastrying to read out Oh magic, the gathering and she was like magic, thegathering of magic. He goes no, it's T' magic. The gathering and she justcouldn't understand the simple game that he was trying to tell her to writedown and it just it's such a stupid thing, but it just kind of signified tome just how out of touch the evangelical world is with the realworld and yeah. If you don't have a context for the message that you'regiving. How, if you don't understand your audience, how can you communicate with thim effectively t wasridiculous and aweful, and I don't think you should scare anyone intodoing anything. You know what was funny is that the Young Guy Um, who was ended up being the Djo for the theraise or whatever, and he was talking about his own, experienced at thesupposed rooms that he'd been to and um how he was alike. Oh yeah and heythey'd carry out like dozens of buddies and then he correctedhimself and was like Oi'm exaggerating, but maybe like eight, Oh nine, and youknow people would be doing this ond that and I just had the feeling that you haven'teven been to a ro of dude. It's like they can't be of the world, and yetthere is still something so andtosshing about the world, like the girls whowere excited about lets, be the whatever victim at the rave andtheywere all excited about it. This is t, is it cognative dissamance? It'sjust. It was bizarre. I also found...

...something else that was reallyinteresting whenever the people would audition for the rolls and they wouldget into it. I man, like se, would fully really get emotional and yeah forsure they were very yeah, and you can tell oh there's a lot of repressionthere that you're you're allowed to let out into this Toptin to the auditioned forthe rolls that they got to play, and there were things like an incest sceneand an abortion scene and a suicide scene and yeah the brave scene and domestic violencing. There are allthese all these things an they would audition to be part of these scenes and, like you said, tthey was so in itlike they just threw them their whole celf into these rolls, and would theemotion like I just ydidn't, make sense to me that therewas such the such a Um. It was a competition to have theseroles. Yes, it was like you said it was really bizarre. There was also therewas a line that one of them said when they were Um when they choose theactors, it's not just based on their talent. It's also based on theirfaithfulness Um, which I just adds a whole another layeof bazaar. You know I that chick is a way better actress sor. You know she'dbe great for the scene, but she's never on time to church, so we'regoing to give it to the other girl, Yeah Yeah. There was a it Follye, the story of eUm, the man who was in charge of it or one of them. So he was a single father Um and was s afterhis children and his wife had left him by having a failwith someone. She met online and he seme very not chill but going with themotionssort of thing. But then one of the sands and the hell house was a man who finds out hiswife was hapen o ar with someone on the Internet and did he wrint that or butwas it coincidental? No, I don't know, but it was just. I also find itinteresting that the situations that were beingportrayed whether people would make the bad decisions and then go to hell. Theywere all victims in their on. I characteri victims on their own right.The girl who was assaulted at the Rave, who don silicided what she was to blamefor, making the wrong decisions to get there and the young boy in a classroomwho shot himself who had been belied while he stillagain made the wrong decisions. So there's a disconnection between Christ, understanding and compassionand well you're going to hell. There was a lot of victim blaming yeah in it,oh at it opens with a statement by the pastor of the church, or maybe theyouth pastor of the church, saying that if, if they don't do this, if theydon't run the Hellhouse the responsibility on his shoulders, if heso people who don't believe in Jesus and go to hell, yes, it's partiallytheir fault. But because I'm a watchman- and I know the truth. If I don't tellthem the danger of hell, then their blood is on my hands, which isridiculous, ferst ifval, but also what a heavy burden to carry to feel thatthat weight of somebody else's iternal consequences on your shoulders. Andit's your responsibility and where d all about you and where does that endright, yeah Wai, to make it all about you and, like I'm God's PersonalMessenger and I've got this job to do and Ye. If I don't do it or they maynever hear about God, and they may never know just how bad hell is andthen what is the Elso saying about all the other Christians who are out therenot running hillhouses, he's basically saying that they're condemning all ofthat surrounding people? You don't believe to hell too, and I don't knowit just seemed a little arrogant and also yeah, like the the the weight ofthat ononsome of the children if they believe the same thing which a the endthere's an alticol sort of thing. So when you finish with the hellhouse youend up in this and by this stage, you've seen school, shooting you've,seen suicide. You've seen incest ripe...

...at a nightclub Um, seeing somebody gothrough an abortion in vivid, brutal detail, you've seen m a gay man diefrom AIDS and not except Jesus at the last minute, whereas compared to thegirl who was going through an abultion did except Jesus at the last Min, itwas seeing a whole bunch of herrific acts happened and then, at the very endthey show um the ones who didn't accept Jesus in Hell, being tortured andsaying things like. Oh, why did I make that decision? Why didn't I turn toJesus I'm in so much pain, I'm feeling the burning like what the heck and alsoshowing the ones who did receive Jesus as they're, going to heaven and Um, andit's nice and safe and Jesus loves you and then, after that, they empty allthese kids into this room and leave them in there and then a pastor of theChurch tells them basically the gospel briefly and scares them and says thisis what awaits you eternal fire if you don't except Jesus now, if anyone wantsto make a commitment to Jesus walk through the store, there are chaplinsthere who will pray with you and if you don't decide to go through it just knowthat this is what your future will hold and they had five seconds to chew, yeah,which was really weird in front of all their peers. Yeap Yep. They had fiveseconds to decide whether or not to walk through those doors, and he evensaid because the next group is coming. It's like th, the individuals, don'treally matter it's about the've Dona job. You can decidor, you can't decide,but you don't really mad. Yet it's numbers of souls saved right, sorry, Um, so they sold the tickets for sevendollars a ticket and they said that they they got about thirteen thousandpeople through each year, so they would have made eighty one thousand dollars Um on those you know ten to Tirteenthousand people. I based it on Thirthain. I also did another Um so over sevenyears, if we take that number down to like seventy five thousand just to evenit out 'cause, you know they didn't necessarily get thirteen thousand everyyear over seven years they would have made five hundred and twenty fivethousand dollars on these hellhouses and sure I'm sure there was costinvolved. ECAUSE they built sets and had props, and all of that stuff, Iwould say the Labor was all volun. Foran Carry Church, yeah and all the Um. All the actors wouldhave been voluntary, but that's lot of money to make from exploiting people'sfear. There was a particular scene wherethere was um a guy. I assume a pasta or a chaplain, or someone was actuallydebating with these kids that had gone through the hellhouse and at the endthey were saying well, I've been to a rave, so am I going to hell, and youknow that that girl at that rave, none of it- was her fault, so she's going to hell because shecommitted suicide. Is that what you're telling me I have friends that are samesex attracted and therefore you know? Are they going to hell like? What'swhat's the deal and everything he said just made it all sound, so shallow andpointless yeah, I think basically, his his wholeconcept was it's an ugly evil world. That's that's the end. If youaretalking about the calvation of young people fishesn'nd how to go about having realsalvation and traumatizing people, I I very much go off in a most UNCHRISTIANway. Many explicit because, let's be real here, this isn'tabout saving souls. Thit is about scaring people, and that is not the Gospel. THAT'S NOT REAL FAITH!Your seeking for these children, eior, that's see o somebody was thinking ofrunning a hellhouse I'd, say. First of all, scrapt that idea and do like ahaunted tool, maybe something fun and not something that makes kids questiontheir etenity in based on the wost thing possible, rather than it being apositive base choice. It's going to be a negative base, choice which thosethings never stick. It's like working out. You don't want to go. Oh I'm goingto work out because I don't want to get fat no, like you want to work out'cause. You want to feel strong. There's, like proven research done that,if what motivates you is more positive than it just it's more likely tosucceed, it's a whole like love, Vesisphia right! Do you want to bemotivated by love Wito, you want to be...

...motivated by F and do you want yourthirteen year old kid who goes to youth group every now and then and ends up ata hellhouse M to be motivated into say. You believe this whole Jesus thing andyou want your kid to believe it too, and you want to send them to one ofthese things. Do you want them to choose that way because they're scaredof something or do you want them to choose it because they holeheartedlywant to jump on board because they love something? I don't know I'd, probablyask them that and ask them what they think is best and and maybe encouragethem to do a psychology course and allso not do it yeah and also what istheir definition of what Hell is? What's it based on what is theirtheology, if this is what they think is the best way to win souls to Christ andalso, I guess, the most important question: What would joususso thepromise La Eetlyhel is a firyplace of deation. I remember my parents had a Bible study going outof the House and Um. I was allowed to come in to watch a movie when I waslike seven or eight, and it was a man who had been stung by sting rigt or ajelly fish, or something and he'd. Actually Daed, U medically died and hehad his experience. Wasthat he had gone tohell, it was a terrifying place and then he cried out to God. I think and then was able to be taken from hell that to being aliveand he was on the operating, hear the table and then decided that he wasgoing to m, give his life to garden, and then hewent around telling this story as a sort of a testimony thing and you cango into the whole Shench of your brain, shutting down and like Um, hallicinations or whatever. But at thetime that really really freaked me out, and I I was a terrified little kid of allother things, and this wasn't Christian. But I used towatch like unsold mysteries and th that had a lot of like stuff that involmysteries like Damons and angels and all that kind of stuff. And so I wasreally into all that. I was a was terrified because I I thought I was. Iwas a little stiner and ths o a lot of stuff, and so I really did think havingin Hell were physical places and then growing up wis a teenager. A lot of myfriends went on Christians and I was really terrified to them and I wouldinvot them. Tush group, the big churchthat I went through for a whileused to do it m at the movie type Seres wher. The would pick a movie and thtalk about this theology. You could get from these popular movies and it wasreal big ging to bring you friends Cha, but then it it was sort of like this isgoing to sound bad, but it was sort of like well. I had done my part inbringing them to church. For one Sunday, some y responsibility was done, whichis really awful, but at the same time I felt such a guilt and a burden to bringthem to church. I think it was like a psychological way of cloping like well.You've done all that you can now it's up to them in God, yeah. So almost Igrow up terrified of hell, not really from anyone specifically telling me. Ithink it was because I just Oestougtin it was one thing I went togh. It was aushgrup thing. We went to tha big church and itwas it. I think it was after Columbine and thatyoung Christian girl had been killed. Rigchel and I did a whole media thingon- she had died for her sice and that she had gone to heaven and that theywere using her death as a spring board for Alouse. Two then say thourselvesfrom going to Hellti, guess and in a way hat sort of what thehellhouses do. Torment kids into metin decisions, yeah,so Hel hell was very real. Tor Me, I grew up with an understanding drilledinto me that hell was a real place as well mean my parents, ere missionaries,so their whole purpose for going overseas as to save people from goingto hell from internal damnation, which is supposed to be a kindness, I guess,but I grew up thinking that it was a...

...real place and that my friends were allgoing to go there. I don't know where this came from. I know in in revelationit talks about all of your deeds will be judged right and then, according toyou to to, I judged- and I don't know what happens next, but I had this ideathat there'd be a big T v screen in on the way to heaven, not necessarily inheaven and all of the bad things I had ever done would be played on thatscreen and everybody in the world could see it, including Jesus and God, andeverybody, and I would have to own up to all of these things, and it was likethis debt that I was wrecking up kind of any time. It did something bad I'd.Remember it and be like Oh man, my grandma's, going to see that, like Ohman, everyone's going to know that I did this and it's kind of like when youput off going to the dentist for a really long time, and you know that oneday you can have to go and he'll be like Oh youhave, so mny compaties andit will suck and yeah. I just it was in the back ofmy mind every time it had something bad that Gr another thing that I'm going tobe embarrassed about and much as that but like it might be held against me,and I won't be able to go to heaven. I just yeah. It was really scary. It took a long time for me toundo that Weid thought that that's what's going to happen to me after Idie and yeah that's hell was just a real thing. Growing up a lot of thesame like a fire flames burning, all the demons will be there so alsogrowing up in India. It's a very spiritual country where they kind oftake it. Bot granted that ther re are spirits and theyre all gods, and thereis another world thinly vailed by the physical world, and they have so manyreligious festivals all year round and they have m big statues that they buildout of paper machee and they paint in bright colors of guards and also of thedemons and also of like some of their gods are really scary. Too. All scary,looking, I guess, like Um Goddess of death M anyways, so in my brain I waslike well, obviously they are real. They just demons and they're all going to be in hell. SoI guess, if I go to hell, I'm going to have to go face to face with Kalima andM Ortherga, and it's going to suck really almost tangible to me growing up and itdid a good job of scaring me into Cosling, going back to Jesus and beinglike I'm. So sorry, please don't sure that to my mom when we get to heaven, don't want that scene. But, okay, Iknow you have to do it really bizarre, Hey, H and very very frightening. Iresonate with that a lot like the whole everybody's going to see what you'vedone a at the end of things. There'll, bethis big like presentation and the whole world will see, and I don't knowif that was something that was like said in passing or taught me at schoolor what whatever it might have been, but yet that the whole idea that itwould be like a a movie plade of your life, all the bad things werehighlighted in some way shape or form, and you were then judged for them andthere was some kind of tally at the end o Knoum, I remember Um. I lied Um a couple of times when I was little andI genuinely thought I was going to hell I used to for years and as years I usedto pray um every night before going to sleep confess my sin, because I genuinelythought that lying was going to send me to hell and yeah. I guess my image ofHill was flames and torture and scary darkness,and I remember being very, very scared of the dark as a kid. So you knowwhether there was a link there or not pobably, just because it was my fea. Iassumed that that's what hell would be you know. Yeahyeah also had this ideathat hell was all your west views, sir. The fact that you scate of the dock andYouiwell, obviously hell is going to be. You know this and yeah. I was the sameway I felt like darkness, Um people shaming me. That was another big thing M in various forms just figured. It wouldbe a lot of that. We make it very personal, don't we even though we and I was afraid ofbeing bunned as well like when I was a kid I um I jumped on my mom when she was in thekitchen when I was about four years old and shehad a Salspin of boiled milk in her hand, and it like spilt all over me, anall down my arm- and I remember my skin under my arm under the tap of waterrunning it and the skin was just peeling off and Sir in a Lod of mychildood photos from that time. I've got this big bandage all down my arm,and I was always scared of burns after that, and the idea that I'm going toburn in Hell when you know what that feels like is like terrifying, and youwill do anything to avoid it so and...

...yeah fear is a good motivator in thatsense, but it's not for the right reasons: Um Yeah, that that's righ andit does sound like for all of us. It was. It was fer and that's exactly whatthis hillhouse yeah thing comes back to. Is that fatum, like you say, is thatreally the best motivator for anything? No, I dorn't! I mean I I'm not scaredof going to hell anymore, sir. It didn't last so as a case study, ON'T WOK ye go, although Itall kind of really beganaround the Middle Ages. So back then almost everyone believed strictly inthe church doctrine and hat included that day believe that I were eithergoing to heaven or to hell the church used less to their advantage. Th theyfound ways to charge people at every turn. You've got your tires that youwould give the Churchman. Also, you would have tirs cribby tat. Tri Sowback in the Middle Ages. If your child died, if your child was ill, the bigthing was you needed to get them baptires. Otherwise they would go tohell, and the Church really did profit off that, because, if you weren't thatties you couldn't be buried on the church land which thenyou couldn't passthrough the gates of Heaven. So a huge instance of of the medial church,profitering oustice was the sale of indulgences which were papers whichdeclared absolution from sins, even those yet not committed. The verywealthy would be able to purchase this forgiveness by donating HAPS to thechurch, which then had a huge classesthing between the Novles and theserf sort of thing for all the worlds at the church had they taid no taxeswhich gave them economic powers Mliyeah. Well, I, which even surpassed some thewealth of some one arcs, so bishops and clergy oied their allegiance, not tothe king, but to the Popin Rome, which led to more tone a few conflicts overthe years, even kings and cueens were subject to payfol authority. Those whochose not to risked having a church churches rash against them, which thechurch was all powerful type thing a bit of boring history, but for Um, forexample. So the Pope trook sides in the Norman Invasion, im excommunicatingEnglish king, Harald The supplosedly, going back on a holy pledge, wh tosupport Wilimnorman US Clim, tos rights. It was all very guy, motorians tothing,and then you had the challenges to the Rurmon Church, so ecause of the size onthe wealth and the powet e church lend increasingly grt corruption in theMiddle Ages. And as a response to this, we had a very little known Germanpreshcold, Martin Luta and his thesis, which she nailed Sodo. But even thenthe use hell to profit too. So the entire thing religion is aboutcontrolling the massens. I mean you say that now especially now POWA dynamicsand how structures and government Um. What's what's going on in the worldright now, woul protest things like black clos madar. The church cansometimes use that, but that isn't godly. And if you do that, then you'regoing to hell like very much very tiresome, but going to go on te Chuch even weaponizes, it wit tygovernment withoniist, like with Donald Trump, going outside to a Pichapoleanchurch across from the White House and holding up the Bible and of course,then the far rich follow that and and US fearis the tactic h. You have tovotethe firite. Otherwise, if you're Democrat, then you warnt a Christianand you will go to hell like it's just it's, it's just really talsome. So my wolething is critical thinking. Well, it should be it isn't always, but I'm abig fan of it. Another reason why people are afraid of Hellais becausethey don't know what the Bible says: Abhout Hill they've kind of got a vagueidea, and then they have this notion that is pushed by the church. Um justth t tha yeah. It's not well brought out or researched or understood, andI'm by no means a scholar in this, but I do know that the wed used for Helinthe Old Testament. This is the widge...

...used by Jesus when he was speaking.This is what is in revelation and what is used in other parts of the Bible. Alot of them are quite different. Some of them refer, as someoyou might knowto Ghena, which was a waste stump where dogs would fight, so there would benashing of teeth and there were constantly firepits burning becausethat's where the trash would go, so it was used as a reference to a bad place.So when jeus would talk about hell, he would use that word to represent thatplace as and you don't want to go there and in the Old Testament a lot of thetimes hell was used. It was to represent shell, which in Tudaisum, isliterally like a hole in the ground. It's just where you go when you die,not some kind of Pegatory, not some kind of punitive place of judgment,it's just where you are after you die. So when King David was a crying out.Lord keep me from the deaths of Shiel. He was not saying, keep me from goingto hell where I'm going to burn forever. He was saying keep me from dying,because I want to live long and have you al favor and your blessing and havegrey has like, but because the English language doesn't have such a diversearray of explanations for things, and then you get propaganda from the churchpushing in agenda in order to scare people to stay inside to listen towhatever they have to say. I mean there's a lot of room for error and ifpeople don't know themselves, then yeah, it's quite easy to control peoplebased on fear. So yeah, I don't know if you haven't doneit already and you want to maybe look up hell and the Hebrew and the Greekinfluence and the grickerroman influence on Jewish thinking about theafter life yeah. It's quite interesting and it's not necessarily what pupculture will present and it's not necessarily the hell houses Presenti,see Mo pase of Giss Youl giss. You Hl Wwir Helen, doing my history studiesand learning how the Church has profited off the belief in Helen, howit a control tactic to people and also, I can't believe it an ethical God whowould torment people for Ein ever and ever anowal and ever never. I ca. Ican't, even without all the theological backing to that, I can't believe that Jist Withe Godthat is meant to be righteous and compassionate, and I I think that weput God in a box when we say things like that, like th, can we define thedivine? I think that we is humans. I think we even have thebasitcomprehension, and I know that I'd probably get a litt of flat from allthe religious people with a lot of bliefs, but I'm sorry, I'm not theskared ten year old. Any more I mean I can't definitively sayanything 'cause, I don't know. Okay, F FEMANS are made in the image of God,and we have this capacity for great love and we C we don't want to seehumanity stuffa endlessly. Obviously, nobody wants that, sir. How could God?Who is the image that we were made in? WHO also loves but to like the enthdegree? How could he also want that and in the New Testament it states clearlythat Christ came o? That old may be saved and reconcile to God and an thatwhere at all means all, I guess and the fact that the Bible is so mixed up onits theology of what hell is I'm overtime and over translation? I can'teven agree itself, I mean, is hell deep down in the middle of the Earth becauseJesus descended into hell. Is it a lake of fire that M Satan and his devilswill be thrown into and do all the rest of us who don't believe, get Therneinto it too? Is it I mean in the chronicles of Nania and the last bookthe last battle Um one of the calumines, so one of the nonchristians he gets togo to heaven and Aslan says to him. Oh, even though you worshipped a false god,you thought you were worshipping me. Oh, you thought you will wish be a falsegod, but really you were wishpping me this whole time, you're a good personyou get to go to heaven. We can't definitively say who gets to go and whodoesn't get to go and what is hell and does it exist? All of that is sayingthat I believe in h the Bible at all so like putting that aside. If I did no, Iwouldn't believe in the hell and um I don't know what happens after we die,but I I can't believe in endless suffering of humans, like it's just too hash and more about restorativejudgment and Justice and less about penitive justice. Because again that's fear and love.Right. Love is restoration and...

...rehabilitation and reconciliation andFEA is punishment. Like love me or I will hurt you besis loveme because I'm awesome, and so you and you love me too Aa, ao e, modernChurch's beliefs, or also shouted from alothe medieval and Middle Age,literature and as th isn't ological like when you look at Dante's Insena inthe non circles of hill that isn't biblical. It's just a man. Whilis thinking, paradash lost, all of that, and yet all that modern supplos tenantsof our face ar based off all those renation middle aged, ah in literature,and it's not teological. So I grew up thinking black and witch, and I neverreally realized that even in the Christian face there are many differentbeliefs on hell. I th, I think that's interesting. I didn't realize thatuntil as an idult towards the end of my studies and theology mystery Um, I believe that I definitely did not believe that hellwas a physical place. I believed that Hell was the absence of God m Ar the absence of light or the absenceof the divine in a person's life orliving eternity without God. I stilldon't believe that hell is a physical place and I guess I lean towards the conceptthat we as human sometimes create our own hell in the lives that we lead, so hellisn't necessarily something that happens after we die, but it can be something wee experience in life as far as what I believe happens afterwe die, I don't know, but there is this conceptin Buddhism. Basically Nevana is the goaland Nevana simply means the snuffing out of the flame. So the end. I guess I lean towards that at thisstage in my jenny that it just ends, and I feel like that's, peaceful andhopeful, not sad and scary, when I was doing some studies on word religionsand I looked into Buddhism, I felt sad for them because I felt like a snuffing out or a a end was hopeless. T ere wasn't anythingbeyond, but now, when I think about it, I see how much that increases the valueof what we have now, rather than placing all our value in what comes next Li commen and subscribe to this OdcasDoif, you don't already check us, sat on facebook and Instangranor Postin,mediocomenes, Um and yeah. We look forward to continuing this conversationwith you guys I thank so joining us I'mpleased up and from outof Tacantiti.Let say good, bye, iplease, don't hack me from mystyl Wat opinions and DunbleDor is definitely in hell. Do you want us to leave the room? Give you some provacy, you ask me to do it. This is completely on you. Guys, I havezero opinion, it's a game of game game game of thrines. What is it? It's, a GAM game, GAM, aThos, it's a game game amup, a man gathering of Megi the gathering magic.No, how do you spell wijaboard.

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